Michael Moran (00:00)

Organisations today are going to provide the tools for you to manage your career but they're not responsible for doing it. Maybe there was a time when employers were paternalistic and they thought their employees were really important. They looked after them. I hate to tell you, since the 1970s, that's not the way employers see it. And whether as result of recession, outsourcing, inflation, at the end of the day organisations certainly in the commercial space have to ensure their profitable. And I'd say people have become like any other unit, indispensable. 

And you've got two drivers, haven't you? The organisation not accepting the traditional employee responsibilities. We don't want to pay pensions. We want to pay fire people quickly. But on the other hand, and certainly post-COVID, we've got a whole group of people who say, you know what? I want to work when I want to work, where I want to work. And so that's why I think the portfolio of sits nicely in the middle of those two things. What employers want, what employees want.

 Intro (01.00)

Hey everyone, welcome to Work’s Not Working, a show about forward thinking people leaders, innovators and academics and how they think we can fix work to make it more meaningful, healthy, inclusive and sustainable. Brought to you by The People Space.   

Siân Harrington (01:12)

Hello, I'm Siân Harrington and on this episode of Work’s Not Working… Let's Fix I! we're asking what if one job isn't enough? We will promise security if we worked hard in one job, but today one job often isn't enough. Not enough money, not enough purpose, not enough freedom. More people are turning to portfolio careers, blending consulting, side hustles, board roles, volunteering, all to build a life that actually works. 

In this episode, Michael Moran, author of GOing Portfolio, joins us to explore why the job for life is over, how employers are failing to adapt on what it really takes to thrive when your career has more than one strand. 

Because here's what's shifting. In the UK alone the number of freelancers continues to rise. Estimates suggest over 4 million freelancers now and forecasts expect further growth. Globally, the freelance economy is projected to exceed $500 billion in value in the near future. 

Yet there's a twist. Generative AI is already reshaping demand, especially for highly automatable freelance and project tasks. However, AI is also creating new demand for skills that complement it, rather than simply replacing all human work. And on the employer side, job postings in roles highly exposed to AI have dropped more heavily than average. 

So later on, you'll learn: why the old one job model is breaking down and when holding onto it becomes a risk rather than a security. What organisations and HR teams must rethink if they want to survive and retain talent in an era of portfolio careers? Practical first steps you can take, even if you're in a secure job now, to experiment with and build towards a multi-strand career and you'll hear stories of professionals who swapped corporate ladders for portfolio lives. 

But first, a bit more about today's guest and why his perspective helps bring this all into focus. Michael Moran is founder and director of 10Eighty and a career coach. And he's worked in HR in the National Health Service, insurance broking and commodities and derivatives industries. He is a former CEO of an AIM-listed business and as I said, author of GOing Portfolio.

His work sits at the intersection of careers, personal development and organisational change. And he's helped individuals, leaders and organisations navigate transitions, rethinking what a career can be. Moreover, he's an avid reader and commentator on the world of work and sport and regularly draws parallels between the two. His favourite writer is Matthew Syed, Times Sports correspondent and author of Rebel Ideas and Black Box Thinking. And Michael is also a season ticket holder of Derby County, which he says helps build his resilience given their inconsistent performance. 

So we're in the middle of a structural shift. The monolithic job model is under pressure from economic forces, from AI, from people's desire for more control. So is the answer to stop chasing a single role and start designing a portfolio of work. Let's see. 

Siân Harrington (04:46)

Thanks for joining us today, Michael. We're going to be talking about going portfolio and I'm very interested in this area. I think that the future of work is going to be much more portfolio than it currently is. So can we start by addressing something you said in your book, which is careers are too important to be left in the hands of others. Why do so many of us still cling to that idea of the single secure job?

Michael Moran (05:15)

Yes, and I want to start with the advice my father gave me Siân He said to me Michael go and find yourself a good steady employer where there's job security. And obviously that was many years ago and at the time it was really good advice for him, given when he'd grown up, but it was terrible advice for me in the 1970s. 

Now why do people cling to it because I think a lot of people do want job security, they want an organisation that's going to guarantee a revenue. Maybe there was a time when employers were paternalistic and they thought their employees were really important. They looked after them. And of course in the economic history there are good examples of that. But I hate to tell you, since the 1970s, that's not the way employers see it. And whether as a result of recession, outsourcing, inflation, at the end of the day organisations, certainly in the commercial space, have to ensure they're profitable. And I say people have become like any other unit, dispensable. The first point I'm going to make there then is people are clinging on to security. 

The second one is because people are inherently lazy. Now, what do I mean by that? It's easy to go into a job, isn't it? And then actually getting into a new job requires quite a bit of hard work on your part. And I use the analogy – I often work with clients who are using the model they used when they were in 20s. They went down to the recruitment agency, passed them the CV and the agency did all the work for them to get them a job interview. That's no longer appropriate. So that issue around it's easy to stay where you are and you do lulled into a sense of security and the passage of time. So that's my second one. 

I'm going to tell you another story – we did some work on careers within HS2. It was really interesting piece of work because In the same room you'd have a bridge builder and a butterfly conservationist. Essentially, in the nicest way, organisations today are going to provide the tools for you to manage your care but they're not responsible for doing it. 

And I persuaded the then CEO to come down and talk and stuff. And he said, you know what? I've never planned my career and I ended up being CEO. There were all these possible stories. So there is that bit that I think people think, Deja vu, but it'll just happen. Actually it won't. 

So there are my three reasons why people do it. Security. It's just easier to be where you are. And lastly, some people believe serendipity will get me there. And then I point out to him, that's a great story for you. What about the other hundreds of people who joined on the same day as you, who didn't end up as CEO? 

Siân Harrington (07:55)

I think we can look back at the beginning of our careers through those rose tinted glasses.. Let's just step back a little bit. And so could you define portfolio and also bust that myth about what portfolio is because I think for a lot of us we think, we're getting a bit older, we're coming towards the end of our career, maybe it's time for us to do a number of different jobs, to do the things we want to be passionate about. But actually, it isn't the end of the corporate life, is it? It can come at any time in your life.

Michael Moran (08:40)

It can, and I will address that in a moment, but let's take us back to why I wrote the book. And this was an idea that Liz Sebag and myself – and we thought it was a great idea but subsequently proved to be a complete disaster– which was, in law firms today you have equity partners. And one of the most difficult conversations the managing partner can have is, how do I move people on? 

I've got people coming through the organisation and at some stage there’s got to be handover of that client. And somehow seamlessly we've got to move the partner who's been there but is now past his or herself by date. And that's not an easy conversation. 

And it's also a time of life where maybe that person is still only in their 50s. The idea of retirement being pipe and slippers. Remember the old sort of when Bismarck introduced I think the first pension he brought in I think 70 and the average death was like 61. 

But that's model’s moved. We now live in much older and indeed it's not uncommon for people to have 20, 30 years post-retirement from corporate life. And that's what we were thinking around in the legal profession, that they are looking to do something post-retirement. 

What does that look like? There'll certainly be some element of financial remuneration. But I'm also going to say most people get to that stage in their life, and maybe they have got some level of financial security, and that's why we often associate a portfolio career with somebody, say 55 plus, who's had a good successful in corporate career. But they're looking to put something back to add to the community. 

And the third element is me time. I want to be able to go and travel to Australia or take more time out of the business. 

I'm defining a portfolio career as some remunerated work, putting something back, and then lastly, time for me. 

Now you ask a really important question because I've just said that model I was thinking about when we were trying to sell this idea to the law firms and the book to support it was, it is for people of a certain age and a certain point of their life in terms of financial security. Maybe the kids have left home, maybe thinking downsizing. 

I'm going to tell you another story because we hired a guy called Doug Reynolds as a contractor and he was looking after our website and he'd come straight out of Uni and he said to me one day Michael have I got a career? I said what do mean Doug? He said because I'm working for you and I'm working for two other people but really I haven't got one employer. And I’ve got no guaranteed work. 

So I am going to say, whilst I think portfolio careers is still associated with people, say 50 plus, the gig economy and in particular zero hours and outsourcing is creating a whole group of people who no longer working for one employer. In fact, you could say, particularly with the advent of tech skills, I can decide to whom I work when I work. And so I don't think it is the sole purview of people 50 plus today.

Siân Harrington (11.38)

It's really interesting because that premise of it being for anyone, I mean, we would have called project work, as you said, but I love that question he asked about, is it a career? Because we do tend to box what is a career, what is part-time work, what is doing project work, what is freelance and whatever. But the world of work is changing so rapidly that all of those are now a career. And I think it is a different mindset to think that is my career, to have a number of different roles. 

Michael Moran (12.15)

And you've got two drivers, haven’t you? The organisation not accepting the traditional employee responsibilities. We don't want to pay pensions. We want to be a fire people quickly. But on the other hand, and certainly post-COVID, we've got a whole group of people who say, you know what? I want to work when I want to work, where I want to work. And so that's why I think the portfolio of sits nicely in the middle of those two things. What employers want, what employees want.

Siân Harrington (12.30)

And there's also, you mentioned a couple of interesting things there, the time back, putting something back. And that is a really important thing, not just for people maybe at the end of their career, but today it's more important value to anyone of any age, isn't it? So from the people in your books, you interview a lot of different people who've made this shift. Can you come up with some example of someone who you thought had found, or they said they've really found new purpose in their life once they stepped away from that one job?

Michael Moran (13.00)

Yeah, I'm very grateful to a gentleman called John Marsland. He's written the foreword to the book. John, a typical sort of City person working for a very reputable firm, asset manager in the City, found himself having to move out of the organisation. Again, this piece of organisations are very keen to bring young talent in and grow talent. And maybe John had got to that point where they thought now time to move him on. 

I suspect he came to the to me, and I worked with him on a one to one basis, very much the last thing I want to do is go back to corporate life. But what can I do outside? And I do want some remuneration. I do think it's important I put something back and I want time for me. And very interestingly, his father had a business that he had in the engineering business, very different from what he'd been doing, and to which John had never really got that involved in. But then he decided very quickly actually, maybe that's something I should devote some time to because it has some worth. 

Surprise, surprise, because he was in asset management, he was able to pick up a couple of independent non-executive roles. But equally, that time of finding time for himself and his family became critical. So John wrote the forward for the book and I think he represents that generation of people who clearly have got something to put back, not just in terms of business skills but into the community. And that will serve him well for the next 25 years of his life.

Siân Harrington (14.30)

So you mentioned there a redundancy or changing a role that way. And you've also mentioned gig working. How much of this shift is really about people's choice and wanting to do it and how much do you think is driven by redundancy, the fact that people are burning out in their roles, there's rising costs of living, quite a lot of people doing more than one job at the moment. Others are finding, particularly young graduates, it is difficult to find a job. So there's a lot in the way to getting that one-job career moment. do you think those aspects will actually also help drive the growth of portfolio work?

Michael Moran (15:10)

Absolutely. And so I think if we go back, I don't say five, 10 years, you're right. Most people found that situation one which the organisation had created, that they didn't want to be in that. But I do see COVID very much as a sort of a timeline. When we look back in 25 years- time, we will recognise very distinct changes, not only in terms of remote and flexible working, but even things around mental health and wellbeing. And I think there’s an increasing community of people who have walked away from corporate life as it's one job as a career for life, or even two or three jobs as a career for life. It’s much more around, no, I want to be doing, you're right, mission and purpose is important to people. 

And I do think we've got a whole generation of people who are not that keen on working for the Goldman Sachs or the Accentures of this world but actually really want to be part of much smaller companies that make a difference. And that company has built the job around them. So smart organisations have got to design jobs around people. And that flexibility of when I work, where I work is critical.

Siân Harrington (16.18)

Yeah. Well, building jobs around people. Yes, I'm all for that, but employers seem to find this quite hard. This is a change in the way workers perhaps are viewing the world of work, but not all employers are viewing it this way. So why aren't they doing a good job here? Why aren't they accommodating this? What's the barriers for the employers?

Michael Moran (16:40)

I'm going to be a little bit controversial here. I'm going to say organisations are slow to change. A lot of people at the top of the organisation have got there the old way and that's why they don't see the new way. 

And going back to my CEO, I started here at 18 and I got my job. A lot of the people in these organisations are very traditional and that's the model they want. Which is by the way why they want people back in the office because that's what they're used to. That's the first thing. 

The second thing is a lot of people are running businesses today, run business solely on the bottom line. They have no sense of what I call corporate or moral responsibility. And they ended up outsourcing, offshoring, zero hours contract. That's absolutely about how I improve the bottom line of this business and the profitability and share price. And employee responsibilities? Can we get out of that?

So that's another reason why they're slow to adopt this. They're using the model that actually is what's best for us is not really what's rest for the employees.

Siân Harrington (17.40)

That’s really interesting because I was actually at an event yesterday and we were talking about technology and the problem with all of this without putting your people right at the heart of it is that, ultimately, if you're just focusing on the bottom line, there's only so much cost cutting and efficiency you can get in this world and we'll all be on the same level playing field ultimately. So it's the people that make the big difference in terms of ideas, strategy, delivering differently, best customer service, all of this. So if you are just focusing in that old mindset, I think you're not really fit for work for the future. 

But that brings me to looking at when they insist on this sort of rigid, very prescriptive role, you find it when people are replacing people instead of thinking, what might we need in this new role, in the new world of work, let's just do the same old things that we were looking for in the person who's just left. What are they losing by doing that, by not having a wider vision on what type of work we could be offering people, they could be a portfolio person, they could be a project person, all of this.

Michael Moran (18:50)

Yeah, I'm going to quote three things. The first one is you're missing on highly talented people. Really talented people, they determine who they work for. If you want, and in a knowledge-based economy where talent and knowledge workers drive businesses, if you don't adapt to them, then you're not going to get the best people. 

Consequently, I'm going to say you're going to miss out on innovation. The marketplace moves rather quickly. Tech wipes out business remarkably quickly. So innovation and what's more, flexibility is key. So the ability to see an opportunity, explore it. 

And I'm going to say, surely the portfolio worker with that flexibility is ideally placed to help you do that. So you have to move quickly. So go back. You miss out on talented people. You miss out on innovation and you're in danger of being slow and failing to respond to opportunities. That's the way you should do it.

Siân Harrington (19.46)

And a portfolio worker will have experiences from a number of completely different backgrounds. Could potentially be working in a not-for-profit and also working in a Plc and bringing some really interesting experiences.

Michael Moran (20.01)

Absolutely. And we know that diversity in its widest source, but in terms of ethnicity, age, background, really key to, I think, innovative and agile businesses.

Siân Harrington (20.18)

So let's think about it from an HR perspective. How can they help companies to engage with portfolio workers? And also I think the thing is, when we have a career, we work for one person, we do sort of expect certain things in return. And often if you're a portfolio or even a freelancer of any sort, you may not be trusted quite as much by the team there as well as the business. There's wellbeing issues, a whole range of things. So how can HR help here?

Michael Moran (20.48)

And you told me not to sell today, and so on and so I'm not going to, but I am going to give a shout out to 10Eighty. The business model we've always had is that the vast majority of the people who deliver our career coaching, executive coaching services, are associates. They are freelancers. They are portfolio career people. 

And you're right. In a corporate environment, there's an expectation. If I do a good job, you're going to pay me. You're going to give me job security. You're going to develop me. A big question there – I think a lot of corporates don't do that at the moment. They have you in the job you’re currently doing but they're not that bothered about you going forward. 

So in 10Eighty, one of the things we have to work really hard to do is given these people can say at the moment's notice, Michael, I don't want to work for you anymore, or no, I can't do that today for you, you've got to work really hard to create what I call a symbiotic relationship. So actually that piece about developing our associates, offering them opportunities for them to grow. Offering them a network, a community of people is really critical because what you want to do is create this sort of family environment, even to sorts of things like Christmas parties or things like that. You really need to work hard at creating the community that people want to be part of. 

And I'm very proud of one of the things that I have created is that, because at the end of the day, individuals don't have to work for me. It's their decision what they want to do. 

And I think it's somewhat ironic that a lot of corporates failed to do that. And yet here we are as an organisation employing freelancers. And by the way, that definitely depresses my margin of business. But to me it's a really important investment in creating this symbiotic community. That's what organisations have to do. 

And I suspect a lot of organisations, particularly where they're using third party suppliers, don't have that mindset. Are they really looking after their catering staff who are employed by a third party company? They probably don't see it as their responsibility.

Siân Harrington (22:46)

That's totally true. We use freelancers, the associate sort of model. So we have that experience already of dealing with people who have portfolio careers. The other thing though is that when you take that step of leaving the corporate world, like we've both done in our time, trying to deal with security, as you mentioned, is a key thing you get from the corporate world you don't get. So talking about it from a personal side, somebody who's thinking of doing this, what are the big challenges that they face when they take that first step into going portfolio? And what do you think helps people succeed?

Michael Moran (23.00)

That's why the book, trying to help people. Because by the way, I would have to say you have to plan it. And most people, when I meet them, who think I would really like to explore a portfolio career, I don't think they're market ready. So planning well ahead, if you're in corporate life today and you want to go through a portfolio career, I think it's a good two years’ work to do before you launch a portfolio career. That's the first thing.

The second challenge is, in terms of the remunerated part of your portfolio, you need to have skills that the marketplace wants to buy. And that requires a piece of self-investment and, also quite tricky, you've got to start thinking ahead as to what skills are going to be required. I can say you today, if you've got AI skills, you're in a strong place. Would I have said the same thing three or four years ago? Now, if you had, and you start to do that investment today, creating a portfolio could be very easy for you. 

So there's that piece of thinking, and I always say this, I don't believe it's an age thing in terms of, if you've got employable skills you can get a job or get work anytime. But as we get older we do tend to invest less in ourselves. And therefore if you go into the marketplace with a skill that's out of date or 25 years ago, you're not going be employable. That's my first thing. 

The second thing, and you won't be surprised to hear me say this, have you invested in your network? A lot of people say, I'm going to create my website and I'm very harsh. Don't bother. Don't do that. People aren't going to find you on the Net. The way to get business and create renumeration work as a portfolio worker is through your network. And I repeat, most people coming to the marketplace haven't made that investment. 

And then I suppose the next step you have to do is you need to tell people. It sounds very obvious. The whole series of self-promotion and branding. And again, most people, that doesn't sit easily with them. I'm going to speak to you, Siân, and I'm going to tell you what I want to do. And I'm saying do you see any opportunities? Can you put my name in the frame? That doesn't sit well with people. 

So that piece around planning, that piece around self-investment, and then there's investing in your network, which is quite long term, as well as getting your network on message.

Siân Harrington (25.40)

I think in the UK as well, we're particularly bad at asking for help or asking our network. Yet people are generally very happy to help people. They quite like it as long as they've got some time or whatever but I don't know if it's innate.

Michael Moran (26.00)

The obvious case is I've not spoken to this person for 15 years or whatever. And then I would say if they called you up and said can we have a coffee because I'd like some advice would you put the phone down on them? Of course I won’t. But there is a natural reticence to ask because they're don’t know what I'm going to ask. So long as you like them and they like you why wouldn't you want to re-establish contact?

Siân Harrington (26:24)

I’ve been speaking to some HR directors recently who've been considering either launching as an independent consultant or taking on portfolio work. And it's interesting, some of the bits of feedback they've given me. Sometimes the people in your network that you think are going to be there or not. And very often it's people that you maybe didn't even think of being as the key people in your network. So that's, I think, quite important. And I definitely agree and like what you said about the preparation because you can't really just fall into this. We mentioned redundancy earlier, but if you're just doing it to fill time, your mindset isn't in the right place, is it?

Michael Moran (27.07)

Returning back to that point about the people and there's some very practical advice in the book. I tell people how to download from LinkedIn your connections. I segment them according to three criteria. How well do I know this person? Have I invested in this person? What do you do for them? And do they have power of influence? Aka, if they made a call on my behalf, the recipient will take it. 

And I always say to people that should be about 10% of your connections. Actually, I think you need at least 50 or 60 people. Why? Because a third won't help you. You think they're going to help you. A third would like to but can't. But a third will, ie you'll have 20 people who will be your marketing team. And it is interesting that that dynamic. And you're spot on. Sometimes you think up there's someone up there who doesn’t help. And yet somebody who actually maybe you didn't think was that significant or you hadn't done much for will go the extra mile for you. 

The other thing I can tell you is, and this is one of Michael's philosophy, if you help people, by and large, that will make the world a better place. I never know when the people are going to come back and help me. But I do know I've built a business with now over 100 corporate clients, all on the basis of recommendation. And, you have to have that longer term view of it. not one, and that I think for lot of people is it's hard work, it's difficult, et cetera. But successful portfolio careers are great networkers. And when I say great networkers, they spend a lot of time giving back to the people.

Siân Harrington (28.38)

It's not easy because at the same time you've lost your monthly salary. So the pressure to do the work, to get the money in versus the time taken out to do that can be difficult one to balance, can't it?

Michael Moran (28.48)

It is, which is why I say you can't just fall into a portfolio career. You have to do some serious planning before you start.

Siân Harrington (28.57)

Another thing that I know you tackle in the book is wellbeing. Now, actually, when you start doing a portfolio career or any form of work for yourself, it can be extremely stressful. You can work very, very long hours. You might think, I did the same, I thought, okay, I'm out of that rat race. I can now build in time in the gym and what have you, yeah, out the window pretty much straight away. So can diversifying work actually help you improve your life balance, your mental wellbeing, or is it all stress? How do you handle that?

Michael Moran (29:30)

I’m not going to talk about the stress, but you're spot on – the number of times people said to me, Michael, I'm working far harder now than I was in corporate life. It requires a real sense of discipline. And again, you mentioned the financial pressures. You know, actually to be able to say to somebody that's not me or no, I'm not going to do that is hard because your initial intention is to do anything to get money in the first instance. 

In theory, it should provide for a much healthier lifestyle. You're your own boss. Like you say, you can determine the exercise you take. I think ultimately it comes down to the individual, doesn't it? That level of self-discipline. 

Now, most people I work with see that as really important. And I can think of people who very successfully have created time for themselves and their partners. But I can equally think of people that the one thing that got squeezed was time for themselves. So in theory it should, but I think a lot depends on the personality. 

Siân Harrington (30.40)

Well, as you said, you've got to deliberately build it in. That's a key part.

Michael Moran (30.44)

What I would add in that middle portion of putting things back, that's amazing how good that makes you feel. And that sort of wellbeing sense. I can think, there are some organisations you can work for and absolutely you can see the value to society. But a lot of the City organisations I work with, I'm pretty certain that people don't see it that way. But actually working with not-for-profits does provide that. I can see how I'm making a difference.

Siân Harrington (31.10)

So far when we've been talking about this, we've generally talked about legal lawyers, we've talked about asset managers, you've got your career transition, media for me. Is a portfolio career just a privilege for the professional class or can a portfolio career work for people who may be in a less well-paid or maybe slightly less flexible sector?

Michael Moran (31.30)

I think you might identify that's where it started but I come back to the gig economy and zero hours contracts and organisations want flexibility. And my story about Doug Reynolds that you know, you can clearly create a scenario where you work for a number of organisations provided you've got to skill set the market wants in place.

I think earlier in your career, let's say in your 20s and 30s, particularly you've if got financial responsibilities, then maybe the piece around putting something back or even creating time for yourself, is going to get squeezed. But if you're your own boss, and I repeat, if you're your own boss, you do decide where you spend your time. And I think more now than any other, it's easier to become self-employed or to even work with maybe smaller companies but not in a full-time capacity. 

It could be you've got two or three employers for X number of hours or days and months. So I do see that. I don't see it now exclusively preserve of this aged professional working class. 

I do think there's a couple of caveats to it though. One is you do have to have a skill that the marketplace wants to buy. And by the way, Deliveroo drivers have got a skill that the marketplace wants to buy.

And secondly, I do think if you want more than one employer, that you then got to have a really good network,  you've got to build a network. And very often early on in your career we don't have that level of connections. Although networking is something you can learn, it’s a skill you can learn very quickly. So in answer to your question, I do think it's possible early in your career. And I do think it's possible with blue collar jobs as well as white collar jobs.

Siân Harrington (33.30)

Okay. So you may not be the definition of some of the portfolio careers we've done, but you've set your own businesses up, you've faced a lot of the issues that portfolio career people do. Let me just ask you a bit more of a personal question, one of the things we talk about, and we've talked about here is a portfolio career can give you that fulfilment. It can give you that purpose. It can give you energy that perhaps has been beaten out of you in a corporate role. Is there any time in your own career and life or a particular role or particular project that really gave you that sort of energy and made you feel this was a way forward.

Michael Moran (34:07)

I've been very fortunate in my career. I say this, what I do now, particularly working one-to-one with clients, I would do it whether I get paid or not. I truly get pleasure from helping people. So running 10 Eighty, yes, as a business manager but I've always insisted that I spend a significant portion of my time doing one-to-one coaching. After this call today, I've got four one-to-one sessions. So I'm very fortunate. 

I was also very lucky. When I was at Uni – I was very fortunate, I came off a council estate, the first one to go to university, that type of thing. And I had to work during the holidays. There was no time off for me. And I worked in a manufacturing plant, a Swarfega factory. And I put cans onto a conveyor belt. I'm telling you, 10 minutes seems like a lifetime if you just putting cans on a belt.  And that taught me I was never ever going to do a job that was dull, boring or repetitive. And so I've been very lucky, I've always enjoyed particularly working with people. That's why I went to HR. So yeah, I've been very lucky in terms of doing what I do. 

I'm also going to say, and this is way before I became a career coach and maybe it was because I was rebelled against my father's advice. I was never going to trust an organisation to manage my career. It didn't take you long to realise very quickly, if you work in HR and you have people talking about, you know, what are you going to pay people or how can they get away with paying as little as they possibly can or letting people go? You think, well, can I trust these people? And I worked with some very good firms, but I understand the commercial reality. So I've always managed my career. And if I didn't like doing it, I left the organisation.

Siân Harrington (35.40)

Yeah, that's something we had in common! And actually I come from a different background to you because I've always been a bit risk averse. Partly I think being a woman in the world of business, certainly when I started out, there weren't many who got to a high level in our field of publishing. And so I always felt you had to work, work, work, work to get yourself up. And it's only a bit later in life I thought, hang on a minute, this isn't what work has to be. So you can come from different perspectives and end up in the same place.

Michael Moran (36:30)

I think it’s funny because I don't see myself as being a risk taker. In fact, I remember when I left one employer, I sought some advice as to what I would do next. And somebody asked me, was I an entrepreneur? No, I don't think so. And then I asked somebody who been working with who said Michael, you’re the most entrepreneurial person I've ever met. So I'm thinking, I think that risk taking is scary in the first instance but actually, sometimes you just have to jump. But I say, because I am risk averse, I've always been someone who's planned. I can always tell people what I want my next job to be, even when I got my current job, so to speak. This is what I want to do.

Siân Harrington (37.08)

So if we look out and we fast forward to 10 years or so, do you think portfolio work could become a more dominant way of working or do you think this is always going to be an alternative to the traditional mainstream job model? Because the world works changing so quickly, things are going to change even more. Where do you see it sitting?

Michael Moran (37.28)

I think I was trying to get a stat on it today, I think 90% is traditional, 10% is this new way of working. And I think we're going to see it move up. 

There's two or three forces here, aren't there? One is the conservatism. So if you talk about the government and its desire for IR35 and make sure people are paid for by companies. In the Civil service where you’ve got your pension you just don't understand what IR35 really looks like. Then you've got the trade unions who are hell bent on, we want people to be employed by employers. Of course that's driven by union fees. We don’t like zero contracts. So that's an inertia that isn't suddenly going to go away. 

On the other hand, you've got the marketplace. The marketplace can be brutal can’t it? And therefore, I think, despite all this stuff around immigration, labour in the UK demand exceeds supply very significantly and when it comes to skills and talent, that will become the dominant force. 

On the one hand, you've got inertia, on the other, significant change. I think we'll move to much more of balanced approach over the next 10, 15 years. And if I was predicting, I think we're going to see many more portfolio workers. Or even if it's not a portfolio in the way I describe it, people working for multiple employees in flexible contracts.

Siân Harrington (38.50)

Totally agree. So let's end on some practical advice. So we might have some listeners here who are now thinking, you know, I would like to start exploring this portfolio approach. What are three actions they could start like today?

Michael Moran (39.10)

One, plan ahead. And that means buy the book! Two, absolutely self-invest. Make sure that at this moment in time, as an asset you're appreciating and you're appreciating in skills and knowledge the marketplace has gone to want to buy in the next two to three years. Invest in your network. Going back to what I said, think about have I got 50 or 60 people who owe me a favour? And if not, can I create an environment that I'm doing things for them? And then thirdly, tell your network of your plans. And again I would preface this. Talking to people about what I'm going to do in two to three years' time, particularly if you think it's going to undermine your place in the job, is a bit scary for people. But the more people you've got on message, because these are the people who are going to provide you with remunerated employment, or indeed, even introductions to the voluntary sector.

Siân Harrington (40.00)

Great advice. So thank you very much. I can't think of anyone better to talk about going portfolio than you. The book's really practical. Lots of great lessons that you can put into place straight away. So I really appreciate your time today and suggest everyone goes and buys a book.

Michael Moran (40:20)

Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be on the podcast. And I should obviously cover it because although I wrote the book at the very early stage, I gave it you to look at and you gave some very helpful feedback. In fact, without you, would be no book. So thank you very much. 

Siân Harrington (40.40)

Thanks, Michael. One of the things that struck me most in this conversation was Michael's insight that security itself is no longer something an employer can reliably offer. And real security lies in having multiple rails in your work life. This idea refrains risk not as losing one job but as if one rail weakens you're still held up by others. If you felt uneasy relying on a single employer, or wondered if there's a more sustainable and enjoyable way to design how you work. Michael's book, GOing Portfolio, is full of stories, frameworks and mindset shifts to help you imagine and begin that path. 

So thanks so much for joining me as ever on Work’s Not Working… Let's Fix It! If this episode resonated, please share it, subscribe and leave us a review. It helps us bring these ideas to more listeners. 

You can follow me on LinkedIn at Siân Harrington, the People Space. And for more articles, insights and resources on the future of work, visit thepeoplespace.com. This episode was produced by Nigel Pritchard. Until next time, I'm Siân Harrington and let's keep fixing work together.