Farley Thomas (00:00)

What I very much like as a phrase, which is the fetishisation of leaders within organisations. For a few years now, this has really sort of struck a chord. In parallel, the infantilisation of earlier career leaders, otherwise known as frontline managers, supervisors, middle managers, all of them are infantilised whilst this fetishisation goes on. And it's connected to status, wealth, perceived power, or actual power, control. And of course, leaders have all of these things, typically. And there is this sort of ecosystem that develops around them. And you might call it a bubble, you might call it an ivory tower, but there is this gravitational pull. We are in a nutshell perhaps confusing organisational status with day-to-day influence on employees' lives, employees' motivation levels. And, of course, CEOs really want performance. And if you really want performance you'd very much focus on the levers of performance and insist that all of your support functions, especially including the people function, for example, really focus on the levers of performance. And if you use that lens rather than power, you'll very quickly arrive at the frontline managers.

Intro (01.22)

Hey everyone, welcome to Work’s Not Working, a show about forward thinking people leaders, innovators and academics and how they think we can fix work to make it more meaningful, healthy, inclusive and sustainable. Brought to you by The People Space. 

Siân Harrington (01.39)

Hi, I’m Siân Harrington and today we’re flipping the org chart with Farley Thomas by asking: What if CEOs don’t matter as much as we think they do? Because let’s be honest, when culture, engagement or performance take a nosedive, our eyes shoot straight to the top. The strategy. The vision. The C-suite.

 But Farley, a former global MD at HSBC, coach to CEOs and now founder of leadership edtech firm Manageable, says we’re looking in the wrong direction. Farley’s worked with organisations from global banks to tech giants. And he’s reached a provocative conclusion: the real levers of performance aren’t boardroom strategies, they’re the everyday conversations between managers and their teams.Not performance reviews. Not coaching scripts. Just real, intentional conversations. The kind that build trust, spark ideas, and shape culture far more than a corporate away day ever could.

 So in this episode, we explore why “fetishising” senior leaders keeps us blind to where the real action is. How untrained first-time managers can make, or break, engagement. Why culture is, at its core, just a series of conversations. And how Farley’s CLICK model can transform even the messiest team chats into performance drivers

 But first, a bit more about my guest. Farley Thomas has been in the leadership development space for over a decade. When he set up his leadership coaching and CEO advisory practice in 2014 he drew on his 20-year career in financial services, where he initiated and scaled numerous global initiatives. 
 Farley’s held a variety of roles in HSBC’s asset management division, including being global head of marketing, product, sales, and business development, all roles that didn’t exist before he held them. He was also on the board of one of HSBC’s subsidiaries.

In 2020 Farley co-founded edtech firm Manageable to help every manager achieve high performance through their team. As he notes most managers, up to 80%, have had no training for the role they are in.  So if you’ve ever wondered why all the top-down change programmes in the world don’t seem to move the needle, this one’s for you.

Siân Harrington (04.13)

So welcome Farley, I'm looking forward to our discussion today. Now, I first met you at a Business Culture event and you threw a sort of grenade into the conversation you were having where you said, if you can remove the C-suite and the organisation carries on, they clearly can't matter for engagement. So let's start with that. What is behind that provocation and why do CEOs maybe not matter quite as much as we think they do?

Farley Thomas (04.35)

Thanks, Siân, for having me. Yes, I recall this grenade now about the C-suite being eminently replaceable and the show sort of goes on. And of course, I hope when you first heard that, it makes sense. know, leadership teams come and go, CEOs come and go. And depending on the size of the organisation, should say that the show sort of carries on. I've been there. You don't necessarily even notice that there is a new CEO, that there is a new strategy, that there is a new this, that, and the other. Because most of the time, employees aren't buffeted by those wins. They're rather buffeted by other wins, such as your teammates, the work in hand, whether you're able to do it, and crucially the person who is supervising the team, leading the team, giving the team day-to-day direction and influence. So I guess the provocation was, why don't we take a step back and think about who really influences day-to-day employee engagement? And my argument is it is unlikely to be the most senior people in the organisation.

Siân Harrington (05:40)

So, yeah, so I wouldn't disagree with that. And I think what's really interesting, there's a guy, Steve Tappin, who talks about the different types of CEOs out there. And very often, particularly in our quoted company environment, you end up with manager CEOs, which fits very much with what you're talking about. I think, as you said, with the different size of company, you might have entrepreneurial CEOs who start businesses there, perhaps their impact is more. But you've worked with senior leaders, you've coached CEOs. Why do you think we tend to overestimate their influence, particularly in the pages of the financial press or our City analysts, people like that? Why do we put so much traction on what the CEO, who they are and what they say and do?

Farley Thomas (06:24.)

Yes. needless to say, I've given a lot of thought to this. What I haven't come up with, but what I very much like as a phrase, which is the fetishisation of leaders within organisations. For a few years now, this has really sort of struck a chord. And, in parallel, the infantilisation of earlier career leaders, otherwise known as frontline managers, supervisors, middle managers, all of them are infantilised whilst this fetishisation goes on. 

So your question about what is this phenomenon? Sadly, I think it's everywhere. And it's connected to status, wealth, perceived power, or actual power, control. And of course, leaders have all of these things, typically. And there is this sort of ecosystem that develops around them. And you might call it a bubble, you might call it an ivory tower, but there is this gravitational pull.  And I think it affects quite a lot of functions, including the people function in organisations. And there is a lot of effort expended to cultivate these people, nurture them, keep them on side, keep them functioning, keep them from going off the rails, etc, etc – often called leadership development. 

At the same time, this infantilisation is going on. These are relative nobodies, aren't they? First-time managers, frontline managers, they're nobodies. It applies, I think, in society at large. I suspect we'll have to put our hands up to being part of the problem, Siân, are we paying too much attention to these very visible corporate icons and not seeing the huge value of the lowly managers across organisations. 

And specifically to your point, I think we are in a nutshell perhaps confusing organisational status with day-to-day influence on employees' lives, employees' motivation levels. And, of course, CEOs really want performance. And if you really want performance you'd very much focus on the levers of performance and insist that all of your support functions, especially including the people function, for example, really focus on the levers of performance. And if you use that lens rather than power, you'll very quickly arrive at the frontline managers.

Siân Harrington (08:49)

It's so true what you say about a lot of our concentration being on those top leaders. You can just see on my bookshelf behind, I've got loads and loads of leadership books and I think the leadership development industry is worth billions across the globe. But if this isn't where the real change is, where is it actually happening? You've alluded there to line managers. If they're the real leaders, why don't we treat them that way?

Farley Thomas (09:11)

Well, now it gets this point about why we don't celebrate and properly equip line managers is a critical question actually. And if it's not on everybody's minds, I think it really will be because we'll have exhausted all the other ways of driving performance and engagement up. 

And then we'll be left with this thorny issue of quite a lot of managers – in any organisation, managers outnumber leadership or senior leaders by a significant multiple – and so, you will arrive at this destination one way or another. And most of the progressive people leaders that we talk to are vexed about manager development. I think here, maybe I'll go away from celebrating managers as the hero of organisations to making them culpable because so many individual contributors yearn to be promoted to that managerial position. And they understandably see it as a path to status, all of the things we talked about earlier, that get you into the C-suite ultimately. And so they readily take on these positions without stopping for a moment to think, have I got the right skillset? Have I got the right attitudes to do this properly, to lead other human beings? And how do I know if all I've done so far is be part of a team? 

So on the one hand, it seems to be the sort of default pathway to success within organisations to take on responsibility for others. And at the same time I think first time managers themselves are all too easily just taking on the responsibility or the burden without stopping to think that this is actually a craft, dare I say it, a profession. And it's just as legitimate a profession as let's say the operations profession or the compliance profession or the human resources profession. These are all areas where you get properly qualified to fulfill your responsibilities. 

And of course there are manager qualifications, but I've really come across very few managers, first time managers in particular, that have had any training at all. And there's a piece of research, I think it was the CIPD UK that published it, 80 % of first time managers in the UK have had no training whatsoever. And I don't think you can only point the finger at organisations. I think a big chunk of these managers have probably not thought that they need to hone their craft to develop their skills.

So think there needs to be a mindset shift with all of these actors on the stage, recognising that they're fulfilling very important responsibility and they're engaging in a new profession of management, of leading people.

Siân Harrington (12:02)

There are a few things that make this happen, I think, in organisations. Firstly, the design of organisations themselves. You talked about people taking that managerial step because it's the road to more money. Let's face it, it's the road to better benefits often. And that's how we've structured organisations. We don't really allow people to develop and step other ways and still advance themselves. So I think there's that issue. 

I also have a little bit of a concern when we talk about high potentials. We quite early on in people's careers sort of segment them into you're going to be important and into that great C-suite at some stage, and you're not so important over here. And then there's the whole, as you said, preparing people for the hardest part of management, which is the people bit.

What are your thoughts on how we structure those organisations, how we can shift our approach to this?

Farley Thomas (12:56)

Yeah, the high potential point you're making, Siân, is an interesting one because in many ways, and I say this over and over again to managers that we upskill, there's this tendency to focus on those who are deemed underperformers and those who are deemed high performers. Perhaps we've got this wrong because that's the dominant view that you need to focus on these two ends of the spectrum. 

But my view is the biggest opportunity lies in everybody else who is neither of these extremes. And the high performers are just that. They're doing really well. Whatever has led them to be in that sweet spot, you probably want to just keep going, leave them alone. Don't disrupt whatever it is that's going on there.

I thought it was a beneficiary of it when I was, in the group talent pool at HSBC back in the day. But I promise you, Siân, obviously it was flattering, but I started resenting all the things that they wanted me to do as a result of being in this talent pool. You know, go and meet this person, be mentored by that person. And for a while it started to feel like a bit of a circus, it wasn't really helping me develop or become more motivated. It was probably robbing me of bit of productivity. 

And so I wonder if, you know, there is a segmentation going on, to your point, but I also think that our attention should be on the individuals who don't have any label. You know, they're not branded weak performers, they're not branded high potentials. They are a huge opportunity for managers to increase motivation levels, to increase loyalty, to increase attention to detail as a result and drive up engagement. 

The other part of your question, Siân, I do worry that if we so easily put individual contributors into management positions and then think nothing of the need for training and development, how reliable is our diagnosis that some subset of these individuals are going to be amazing future leaders?

I think the whole edifice needs to be scrutinised and I'm not too sure we've got much of this right. There's a lot of subjectivity to it. And maybe therein lies the issue. Someone thinks someone would be a great manager without having any evidence of their leadership abilities, presumably because they've not been leading anybody yet. And then someone else just thinks that one of these people will be a great future CEO. 

And so I do think, Siân, and I'm pretty sure you're with me on this, that we need to bring a lot more rigor to the whole, and we need to start thinking about first-time management as the beginnings of an apprenticeship journey that culminates in mastery but starts with apprenticeship. Roger Kneebone, a professor at Imperial at the time when I spoke to him, talks eloquently about how expertise develops. And I would love for us, for more and more of us in organisations, to embrace this concept of every first-time manager starts as an apprentice in the craft of management. And I think if we start there, then everything else will resolve itself.

Siân Harrington (16:08)

I love that idea because that's what we do in other parts of our lives, don't we? When we're learning in academia, for example, we go through that apprenticeship into mastery. And in our own sort of specialist subjects, that's an approach we would take, but we don't seem to put it really into that wider people management piece. 

Now, a lot of this is also related to culture and how we treat people what we see our organisation whole as being. I remember you've spoken quite a bit about what is culture? There's so much around culture, but you said something I thought was very interesting, which is really, it's just a series of conversations. That's a new take to me in a way. And I was interested in how that shift in thinking came about and what exactly you mean by that.

Farley Thomas (16:55)

Yes. So, Siân, you've taken us into the thorny, the minefield of culture. again, I was being simplistic, no doubt. But why not start with something simple that is perhaps 80% of the opportunity? And hence, I think I came up with this phrase, is performance equals conversations and conversations equals culture. so, know, understandably, this is all very obviously connected. 

I'm trying to bring more focus to conversations because it is the currency of leadership. Of course, there's a lot of other stuff, know, symbols, rituals, etc etc. I'm not ignoring all of that. But if we were to be able to shape something concretely, practically, we can shape conversations. 

And I promise you, Siân, whilst it is, I think, blindingly obvious, it does, whenever I say it, people sort of need a little bit of time to process it. I say every single conversation employees have is on the clock. We're being paid to have them. And managers' conversations are particularly important because as we've established already, they are hugely influential in employees' wellbeing, in employees' engagement, how team members feel. So manager conversations suddenly become really important and they're also on the clock. 

So I really strongly feel that If we wanted to start somewhere, of course, manager development in its holistic sense would be wonderful. But what about just getting a sense of the kind of conversations managers are having and giving them some pointers, some frames from some guardrails, some ideas for how those conversations go in a different direction.

And the direction that we espouse is a coaching style of conversation, which leads much more with curiosity and constructive challenge. But I'll stop there but that's sort of my sense about culture and performance and conversations.

Siân Harrington (18:56)

Yeah, so manager as a coach, that's interesting, we've been talking about that for a while. And I agree with very much with that perspective and what you're saying. But I also heard you refer to it as a conversation leader. So not just a coach, but also a conversation leader. We have lots of conversations. So what are we doing wrong? Let's delve deeper into this whole idea around conversations. Where are we going wrong with the conversations we're having? What are we missing? What can we be looking at here?

Farley Thomas (19:25)

I think, you know, it's all built on this underlying issue, of the accidental manager who is having unintentional conversations, unskilled conversations, conversations with no real guidance. And of course, left to your own devices, some people will naturally land on amazing conversations. You probably don't want to be leaving that to chance. What if nobody's landing on amazing conversations that lead to highly motivated performance? And I keep coming back to performance because this is why organisations really exist. This is why anyone is hired for delegation to them and for them to return performance. And of course, you know, all the things that we do focus on are levers for driving up performance like motivation, wellbeing, inclusion, diversity, all of these are really powerful levers for performance. 

But back to your point around, you know, what do we practically do? I've come up with a frame, a system, let's say a conversation system that I call CLICK. And the more obvious it seems, the better, because then we've got a chance that really busy managers can a) get to grips with it and b) put it into practice. So the more complex and sophisticated things are, they probably sell, but they're utterly impractical. And the more simple they are, people kind of think, well, don't people do this already? But why not just check? 

For what it's worth, know, I'm advocating a sort of like an anatomy of a powerful conversation that managers can try every day to put into practice, which is to invest some time in connection, building trust, rapport, psychological safety, and so on.

Exploring the landscape, that's the L, somewhat creative, exploring the landscape. This is where curiosity, asking great questions, not jumping to conclusions, testing for the other person, having some insights or ideas to bring to the table. 

And then moving on to developing insight together, challenging that insight. And then finally, drawing all of that together into some key points that the conversation has resulted in, which you can then go off and do something with, and then you can bring that back to the beginning of the next conversation. 

Now that's a little bit of a laboratory style conversation, but I honestly think that if more managers, more leaders can just think a bit more intentionally, be a bit more intentional with all their conversations. Am I connecting here? Where's the insight? What are the key points? I'm convinced we will have much, much more engagement and crucially much, much more performance. And that is ultimately what I mean about shaping these conversations. It's essentially a training manifesto.

Siân Harrington (22:07)

So we're not talking about the sort of conversation you have in a kitchen, sort of saying, hi, how are you? How's your family? Or are we? Is that part of connection? How far do we make this spontaneous? 

Farley Thomas (22:20)

Yes, I hear you, Siân. And it can feel, can seem a little bit clinical, can't it? Or, and I use the word lab, lab style. You hit the nail on the head. These water cooler moments, vending machine moments more like, are really important. And I'm so pleased you asked about it because so many people that I've coached over thedecade or so have pondered this. Is this a waste of time? What about this settling in period at the start of meetings when I just want to roll up my sleeves and get down to brass tacks? And I do my best to remind them that that's all necessary for humans to feel connected, to feel seen, to be seen, to feel heard, and to kind of settle literally into the agenda. And it's a bit like sort of animals around, I don't know, an oasis, they're checking each other out for a while, making sure it's safe. And then they can sort of start drinking.

And I think meetings and conversations are very much like that. And if you're convening the meeting, if you're leading the meeting, if you're managing the process, I think that first connection phase is crucial. well spent because then everything that follows will be much, much more easy, more effective, more productive.

Siân Harrington (23:38)

Yeah, it reminds me around the time when you used to just all go out for a coffee outside or with the smokers or whatever, just because that's the way you get to build the relationships and to have those conversations, isn't it? But that brings me to today's working environment because today, of course, we've got remote working, got people in at different times, we've got channels like Slack, AI taking over, these sort of platforms, does it make it harder to have these conversations?

Farley Thomas (24:07)

Yes. So the more complex working environment we have today, I do believe Siân makes things even more challenging and actually increases the need for equipping those who are convening these conversations, managers effectively. It increases the need for them to be helped. And I think otherwise you've just got more of this ‘making it up as you go along’ happening. 

So yes, I couldn't agree more. think you've got more diverse teams. That actually is a huge opportunity, of course, as I think we now have well established through a lot of evidence that it leads to better performance, but it actually leads to more challenging management of a more diverse team. 

Then of course, including all of those diverse voices becomes really critical and a new challenge and it requires some skill. How do you facilitate really well? How do you include everybody? How do you use the channels or the modes of communication that individuals prefer or dislike? So we've got layer upon layer of complexity and then of course you've got remote and hybrid working.

It's such a huge topic, Siân. I hope you're not looking for the silver bullet. But I do sort of humbly go around trying to do a little bit of research on this, asking, you know, what's going on in your business? What's going on in your company? And quite a few times, again, it's a bit like, surely we should invest in managers. Something else weird goes on – mandates from up on high for everybody to do X, Y, Z. And this seems to be more of the same old problem of going full circle to the start of our conversation, Siân, leaders who seem to know best. And issuing edicts. 

And, you know, one large tech company wanted Manageable's help with getting the managers to tow the party line. And we said, they won't. Why don't you get them to develop the line that works for their teams or their functions? Why don't you give them some agency? But that just didn't land too well and Manageable loss and business there, no doubt. 

So, on your point, Siân, I know it feels that it seems easy to say this, but I do worry about these blanket mandates. I really am impressed when there are businesses that I come across where teams and functions, departments, are developing their own approaches. And I think, think the gold standard is each team understands the importance of synchronous work and asynchronous work, not just one or the other, and figure out together how they can strike the right balance. 

And there is absolutely no question that if we can get synchronous work, manifested in the team getting together in person. That's what we're designed for. And then separately recognise the crucial importance of having significant chunks of asynchronous time, where you're actually able to do some deep thinking and some individual work. I think, you know, that feels like the answer to me. But I completely respect the significant challenges organisational leaders are facing in implementing this quite nuanced approach with no real guarantee of success.

Siân Harrington (27:23)

Yeah, it's interesting Farley, because you've made me think there that actually one thing we're not focusing on in this discussion about remote, to remote, to hybrid, to not come back to the office, is the conversation. Because actually that's at the heart of probably a large percentage of why these things aren't working if you haven't got effective conversations, whichever medium you're using, whichever approach you're having, you're not going to be performing as you said. And I think we've missed that bit out, but yeah, there's a whole lot of information we could go into there, I'm sure. 

And by the way, we might be called Work’s Not Working… Let’s Fix It! but we don't believe in silver bullets. We just want to raise the issues and say that let's just move it forward i- this s probably the not quite so sexy way of saying it!

So picking up on your CLICK model, with all the work you've been doing with organisations, which bit of that are people struggling with the most? Is there a common area that seems to be jumping out each time as one of the areas that just people struggle with?

Farley Thomas (28:30)

Yeah, it's a great question. What is the challenge with the CLICK approach? I would say that the area that is easiest to invest in and is often overlooked is the power of exploring the landscape of someone's topic, someone's issue. It's the core of a coaching approach, lead with questions not assumptions, lead with curiosity, not conclusions. So that's something that we're helping many organisations with. How do we move from a sporadic implementation of exploring the landscape to something that is just reflexive? And it takes a bit of unpicking to it reflexive because we've become socialised at work to jump to conclusions, to finish people's sentences, to second guess, to be the first with an answer to a very poorly understood issue. So it takes a little bit of unpicking, but we get some amazing feedback from those who embrace the idea and go off and road test it in the wild. 

And one thing we try to do is to get people to reflect on what does it feel like when someone finishes your sentences. And they know full well that it's awful. What does it feel like when you've got this amazing question and somebody cuts you off halfway because they think they know what you're asking and it feels really frustrating. So I would say, Siân, that the part that we tend to start with, and I'm not saying it's what everybody struggles with, but it's a gateway to the rest. If we lead, we become more curious. And by the way, being more curious is also being demanding because you're asking for more answers. We're expecting people to know more. We're inviting them to learn and develop rather than giving, spoon feeding them answers. So I think, so I would say, you know, exploration, curiosity, coaching style is a great starting point. 

The whole of the system, by the way, we've seen a lot of individual differences. And this is about managers bringing their personality, their habits to the mix, which is why we feel quite strongly that they need, managers need some standardised approach. How would we like you to lead rather than just make it up as you go along and just do what you want. And of course, managers would then gravitate towards some element of the CLICK system that is for them the comfort zone, whether that's connecting or challenging or pulling things together as key points, but it's not managed. It's not intentional. And I think therefore performance is being left on the table.

Siân Harrington (31:10)

Do you think that having conversations is becoming harder? I'm just thinking about the world outside of work where we are increasingly doing our conversations through social media or generations have been brought up now that are less, I don't want to say less social, but some of the things that used to act as a sort of social lever in our lives are not there anymore. So we're not talking in quite the same way. 

Farley Thomas (31:41)

Yeah, are conversations harder? I would say so, yes. And I'm even thinking about conversations with my children. I think they're becoming few and far between. And I wonder if therefore there is a sort of systemic issue here. The number of organisations we work with, people are frazzled. They're in back-to-back meetings. They're multitasking. They've got impossible deadlines. They're double booked and they're not present and they struggle to be present. They want to be. 

So I wonder, Siân, and, and, I know you have some views on this. I wonder if we're, getting it wrong. That there is this kind of the appearance of productive work and perhaps what we're doing is at best winning in the very short term and losing the long term. 

And I'm convinced that this is happening, that we're losing in the long term and potentially winning in the short term if we're lucky, because we see ery high levels of employee absenteeism. We see high levels of turnover. We see burnout. We see health issues. 

And I wonder if conversations is one part of this system of change that's needed where we need to perhaps slow down. I don't know, you know, leaders listening to this will think, oh my goodness, no, we need things to speed up. But I don't know, it'll be great to have the calculation. Does speeding up actually slow you down in the long term? I would bet that it does.

 Siân Harrington (33:09)

It feels like that's the case, doesn't it? I do wonder whether, bringing it together, the sort of the manager role, the conversations, the general world we're in is just so demanding at the moment. And actually in everything in life, if you're thinking about some of the challenges we have, being able to have a good conversation about it, to get to an understanding, to show your worries, to help people perform, whatever is so simple. And yet, as we're having in this conversation, we're talking about, it seems to be really quite difficult to do in practice. You’ve worked with organisations, as you talked about earlier, the one that didn't want to listen. What about the ones that listen? Whatare you seeing there when they take on board this approach, what results are you seeing?

Farley Thomas (34:05)

Oh fantastic results, Siân. What are the results of good manager conversations brought about by relatively simple but powerful learning experiences, training, if you like?We see managers themselves being far more motivated by the job in hand, because before they go through these effective learning experiences, they feel like it's a thankless task. They don't know what they're doing. They try this and that. Results don't change, behaviour doesn't change, and they get clobbered for it.

And if they're exposed to some research rather than told what to do, we find that works really well because that's how that's respectful. Here's some evidence for how human beings actually behave. Here's some evidence from within organisations that have studied what do great teams look like, what results in great performance, what do good managers do day to day.

So we present some of this evidence, not to teach but rather to inspire managers to pick from some of this that resonates and to go off and experiment with it. And when we get good feedback about something we try, we tend to keep doing it. And when we get negative feedback, we tend to stop and we come up with something else. So it's getting people to start with some good practices inspired by research and positive role models. The results are amazing and teams report far more motivation, far higher level, much higher levels of engagement. 

And it is exactly what all of the CEOs I've coached over the years are desperate for. They want more engaged people delivering better performance. And we see every day the answer, which is inspire your managers with some good learning experiences to try best practices out. And then they will naturally start accumulating more and more best practices because they get positive feedback. And then before you know it, they're on that apprenticeship journey towards mastery.

Siân Harrington (36:10)

Are CEOs any good at conversations? Bringing it back to where we started.

Farley Thomas (36:14)

Well, Siân, of course, I've had some amazing conversations and some of them are on the record with really, really quite impressive people running quite impressive organisations. And I mean, I've got a biased sample haven't I, because I've talked to progressive CEOs that have embraced a coaching style of leadership. They've sought help. They know they don't have all the answers. And I haven't worked with the ones that know it all and don't need help. So the answer to that is, of course, that it's a mixed bag. 

But building on your point, Siân, it's almost not so important whether CEOs are brilliant at conversations or not. The point that I would love to become mainstream is that that's not where the action is. Them having great conversations will impact the ecosystem immediately around them but does it trickle down? I've seen very little evidence of that. 

And, and so I would argue that we started perhaps since we're not going to stop any of the activity at the top end of organisations but we could start some really powerful, actually not very expensive and eminently scalable activity at the frontline manager level of organisations. And I think that's going to have a huge effect almost immediately actually on everyone in the teams of those first time frontline managers. So if we can pull both off in parallel, we might over the next few years actually converge on some sort of, I don't know what, a golden age, Siân, a golden age of managers enacting the craft of management.

Siân Harrington (37:54)

Well, we could definitely do with a golden age. So let's just pull some sort of practical thoughts and insights out of this. So, you we were talking about the manager as a coach, but are we set up in terms of how we approach coaching today generally to really enable them to do this? Particularly we're moving towards more AI coaching, like scaling coaching up, mass coaching. Are these a dichotomy or can we work with both ways?

Farley Thomas (38:22)

Yeah. So, Siân, this is another big, big topic. And to be honest, I was advocating, manager as coach as a shortcut but I've over the years actually started to realise this is a new problem because we are re-labeling managers rather than getting them to properly inhabit the label that they already had. And I know proponents of manager as coach actually are, like me, very clear headed about what we mean by that. We mean managers shifting towards all of these behaviours that we've talked about earlier and let's say curiosity being actually the ultimate shortcut. 

But manager as coach, actually I've noticed has caused quite a lot of organisations and managers within them to become confused about when they are a manager and when they are a coach. And this is when I started to think, actually, I'm going to abandon this and I'm just going to talk about managers honing the craft of leadership and using a coaching style always. So that's one strand of your question around manager as coach, Siân. 

Forever, I have been saying to whoever will listen that we've got an army of coaches readily available within organisations and they are managers. And if we can give them those conversation skills, those leadership skills, we then, for argument's sake, can reserve all of that firepower and scarce financial resource for when it really matters for individuals in important transitions who do need specialist support in the form of external coaches or internal coaches, rather than spraying it, let's say, across an organisation and keeping your fingers crossed. 

Technology here is possibly problematic, making it very easy to deploy mass coaching platforms. But are these coaches really better than the manager that you spend 90% of your time with? And if, even if they are, the manager will undo any good that's done. 

And so whichever way you look at it, you're better off actually getting managers to improve a tiny little bit, and that'll have a huge effect. And almost recycle this mass coaching budget to a mass training program for all of your first time managers. And I would wager it would do wonders for all of the things that leaders want, which is more engaged employees delivering better performance and feeling better as a result.

Siân Harrington (41:00)

I recently spoke to Mark Malloy at the Met Police and they've done this type of approach and brought in peers, their own people to help, to train, to learn, to coach. And it's had a double effect, as you said, because firstly, we're more likely to listen to people who've been there and done it. We know, we trust them. They've seen what it's like on the front line. 

But secondly, that's also really given great new skills to those people who weren't sure they could do this and then suddenly in front of a team helping them to do it. So I think there's some good evidence already out there of people who have done it and the impact it's making in business. It's a very interesting that. 

So if you could wave a wand today and change one thing about how organisations approach all of this, about approach performance, culture, conversations, whichever way you want to go with it, what would it be?

Farley Thomas (41:45)

Gosh, what would my magic wand be Siân? I don't have a very pithy kind of answer to this but I would have a framework that makes it clear to individual contributors what shift is involved with taking on leadership for the first time and further leadership positions so that people can with eyes wide open opt into that journey knowing what it entails, knowing that it requires some training, it is a significant change from the status quo. It's not just doing it on the side. So that's one piece of it, I think, which is helping clarify what's required at each of these leadership transition points, especially the first one. 

And then a learning experience basically that goes with every phase of your leadership career. And I don't think it's particularly insightful, Siân, I'm sorry to say, but just that make clear what each of these transitions involves and have conversations with people about their fit. And then when everybody's happy that it does fit, there is a companion learning experience that goes with each phase of your leadership journey. And I I would prioritise that first to mid-career phase where you're the least skilled. where you're the least experienced and arguably therefore can do the most damage or spread the most joy. Nothing earth shattering but very difficult to pull off.

Siân Harrington (43:25)

And so far in terms of that making conversations count, if I were listening to this and tomorrow what three practical actions can I take, particularly as a people leader, maybe an HR person, as a manager, what can I do tomorrow to make those conversations really count? What would be your three tips?

Farley Thomas (43:44)

I'd get all your existing early to mid-career managers into little clumps and expose them to some version of this CLICK system. And you could give it a different name. You could make it four instead of five elements, but I've tried hard and I really can't get away from these five elements. And I would run maybe one hour workshops. You don't need external support, but that might speed things up. And get all of your managers just becoming more intentional about quality time connecting, quality time exploring the landscape, developing insights together, challenging, including perhaps with some radical candour, and then drawing things together as key points, key takeaways, key to dos. That would be a very practical way of starting to be much more intentional about conversations.

And you asked for three things: Getting them all together in clumps is one thing. Running these workshops is another thing. But a third thing, which could be really provocative and powerful is getting everybody to realise the obvious, which is performance equals conversations. And that will provoke some reflection like, Ooh, I'm talking on the clock therefore my words count. We know executive coaches know this very well because they're paid for their words. But do managers know this or do they appreciate it? So I would urge people leaders to maybe pick a mix from those three and do them all. 

Siân Harrington (45:11)

Great. And let's end with something from your personal story. So when did you think this mattered? Conversations matter. Conversations equals performance. Where did you come to that realisation in your own career?

Farley Thomas (45:24)

Well, there's something about words that have always fascinated me. I studied language science for my first degree and I've actually got a master's in applied linguistics of all things. So clearly I find words and language is quite important. So I think that was always there from my teens. I grew up bilingual, which kind of probably programmed me to be much more sensitive to words and meanings.

From a work perspective I was for quite a while in marketing, words matter, and then pivoted to global leadership roles in a complex organisation, where again how you talk and how you influence people becomes crucial because you don't have authority over them. 

The crystallisation of this very point that you're asking me about, Siân, is actually more recent where I've been thinking about this, you know, what scaffolding would help managers. And, hence I developed this CLICK system because I personally have found models like the GRIW model, not that practical as a conversation shaper, much more useful as a linear journey. And hence I've invested some time in the CLICK system. So it's really in the past few years that I've developed this idea around performance equals conversation to kickstart some folk to kind of get people really focusing on what do they say? How do they say it? So again, it's like a gradual thing rather than some epiphany, Siân. And I know that probably sounds a lot less interesting, but there you have it.

Siân Harrington (46.52)

That was Farley Thomas  making the case that performance doesn’t start with a strategy document. It starts with a conversation.

What I’m taking away is this: you can have the smartest CEO in the world but if your frontline managers aren’t equipped to lead great conversations, you’re leaving engagement – and results – on the table.

 Farley’s CLICK model is deceptively simple: Connect. Explore the Landscape. Develop Insight. Challenge. Capture Key Points. But put into practice it’s a framework that can turn accidental managers into intentional leaders and help any team thrive, whether they’re in the same office or spread across time zones.
 So if you’re in HR or leading people, now’s the time to invest in the skills that actually drive performance, not just at the top but everywhere in your organisation.

Thanks for listening to Work’s Not Working… Let’s Fix It. I’m Siân Harrington – subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and follow me on LinkedIn. For more bold ideas and practical tools on the future of work, head to www.thepeoplespace.com.

 This episode was produced by Nigel Pritchard. Until next time stay bold, stay curious and let’s redesign work… for everyone. Goodbye.